Grant Fidelity Audio - Read Only

[igrant]

A-534B - 300B tubes - listening tests.

Grant Fidelity A-534B 300B tube amp, MBS-1 speakers, MDVD-100 CDP, MRCA-1 interconnects, SPC-2.5 speaker cables, RPF-120 Conditioner, PC-1.5 Power Cables, 2 x BT-12 Bass Traps.

300B tubes tested:
Shuguang 300B-98 - Retail $160 USD Pair 30 day warranty at GF.
TJ Full Music 300B/n Mesh Plate - Retail $285 USD Pair 30 day warranty, $325 USD Pair with one year warranty at GF.
TJ Full Music 300B/c Carbon Plate - Retail $459 USD Pair 30 day warranty, $499 USD Pair with one year warranty at GF.
Shuguang Treasure Series 300B-Z - Retail $600 USD Pair 30 day warranty, $650 Pair USD with one year warranty at GF.
TJ Full Music 300B/se Carbon Plate - Retail $700 USD Pair 30 day warranty, $750 USD Pair with one year warranty at GF.

Other tubes tested:
TJ Full Music 12AX7 Box Plate - Retail $110 USD Pair 30 day warranty, $130 USD Pair with one year warranty at GF.
Shuguang Treasure Series CV-181Z (6SN7) - Retail $320 USD Pair 30 day warranty, $345 Pair USD with one year warranty at GF.

Started with the A-534B with stock tubes. Music used is my GF demo disk, which goes every where with me. Female vocal and jazz quartet, then male acapella quartet, then sax with jazz quartet, then full orchestra doing swing, then female pop song song. I used to be a recording engineer so I can focus on particular parts of the mix and memorize them. The tubes would all be on for 15 minutes prior to listening, amp was warmed up for an hour prior to tests.

The purpose of this review is 2 fold, to get a feel for upgrading the A-534B with tube rolls, using the tubes we now carry and to evaluate the difference between the 5 330B tubes we carry. The results are not definative and should be used just for making up your own mind. I have tried to step back from the fact that I sell these tubes and the amp to provide what differences I heard when rolling and that is what will follow, just my notes, whatever I wrote while listening.

I ran the A-534B at the same volume for all tests which was a bit louder than typical listening, probably about 90db average, 4 on the volume, in the 1 to 5 watt range. I started with the A-534 with the stock tubes and then started rolling, where the amp ended up completely retubed and then worked my way back to stock. I didn't do the recifier tube, as it just introduced too many variables for this test.

The TJ tubes had decent time on them except for the TJ Full Music 300B SE which Rachel sold to a friend, a new set seemed to sound great even after 15 hours so went with it with low hours. The Shuguang Treasure 300B-Z has only about 40 hours on them and the factory says 300 hours to burn in. The Shuguang Treasure's sound very tight new and loosen up after about 15 hours. Other Shuguang Treasure's are still improving daily with over 100 hours on them. IMO the 300B-Z has not yet shown me it's full potential at all.

First Roll - TJ Full Music 12AX7, replacing Shuguang 12AX7B in pre-amp section. My notes:
Wow, more of everything, much more bass extension, soundstage opens up, more detail and more apparrant gain. Remained in for rest of tests.

Second Roll - Shuguang Treasure 6CA7-Z (EL-34) Fat Boy replacing Shuguang EL-34B in driver stage. My notes:
Nice, more solid bass, darker soundstage, less distortion, less sibilance, more air. Remained in for rest of tests..

Third Roll - TJ Full Music 300B/n Mesh Plate replacing Shuguang 300B-98. My notes:
Taller soundstage, much more air, more snap on bass, deeper soundstage, more upper frequency detail, really nice and fun tube, only about $100 more a pair than the Shuguang 300B-98, make this a no brainer.

Fourth Roll - Shuguang Treasure 300B-Z Mesh Plate replacing TJ Full Music 300B/n mesh plate:
same tonal character as the TJ, less distortion, more balanced sound, really like, cannot stop listening, midrange is very sweet but accurate, more relaxed, need more time on tubes, they sound like they have much more to offer.

Side note on the Shuguang Treasure Series, the internal High Polymer Compound Carbon coating is alive. When new, the coating is not complete, after you run them for a bit the coating expands into place, very cool to observe.

Fifth Roll - TJ Full Music 300B/se Carbon Plate Special Edition replacing Shuguang Treasure 300B-Z mesh plate. My notes:
Just perfect, just right amount of air, soundstage opens up beautifully, more bass extension, sibilance gone, amazing layering in soundstage, hard to reproduce passages done with ease.

Sixth Roll - Shuguang Treasure 300B-Z Mesh Plate replacing TJ Full Music 300B/se Carbon Plate Special Edition. My notes:
Tighter sound (as in tight sounding tube), smaller soundstage, still sounds like not enough hours on tubes, soundstage more forward, but beautiful sound, again hard to stop listening, something magical in the coating, less distortion, most accurate tube, excellent imaging.

Seventh Roll - TJ Full Music 300B/c Carbon Plate Standard replacing the Shuguang Treasure 300B-Z. My notes:
Not as much air, very balanced sound, roundish bass, smaller soundstage, very smooth, really nice tube, doesn't seperate complex passages like the TJ SE or SG 300B-Z, very full sound, good for a thin sounding system.

Eighth Roll - Shuguang Treasure 300B-Z replacing TJ 300B/c. My notes:
Air is back, better defined bass, sibilance gone, really sweeet tube, better soundstage, better instrument seperation, better than the TJ 300B/c in just about everything.

Ninth Roll - TJ Full Music 300B/se Carbon Plate Special Edition replacing Shuguang Treasure 300B-Z mesh plate (again). My notes:
hotter tube, plays a bit louder, this is the best tube, nice growl in bass not noticed in other tubes, accurate imaging, so musical on sax, difficult orchestra sounds amazing, love this tube.

Tenth Roll - TJ Full Music 300B/n Mesh Plate replacing TJ Full Music 300B/se Carbon Plate Special Edition. My notes:
Aggresive sound, nice but hollow, very forward soundstage, want to turn it down. Hard to listen to after SE.

Eleventh Roll - Shuguang 300B-98 replacing TJ Full Music 300B/n Mesh Plate. My notes:
Bass round and flat sounding, imaging not as accurate, no where near as much air, nice balanced tube.

And that is it. Again it is up to you which tube fits your budget and sound. I can make basic recommendations, if money is no object, go with the TJ 300B/se or Shuguang 300B-Z, both are amazing with the edge going to the TJ 300B SE in my gear with my ears. If you are on a tight budget, spring for the TJ 300B/n mesh plate, it is an excellent budget tube. The TJ 300B/c Carbon Plate is an excellent tube, it has been reviewed in the past as being better than the expensive WE, but is not in the same league or as listenable after hearing the TJ 300B/se or Shuguang 300B-Z.

For A-534B owners, please consider getting a set of the TJ Full Music 12AX7 tubes for your amp, this will make the most improvement for the least amount of money and still retains the magic of the A-534B in stock form.

When I have 300 hours on the Shuguang 300B-Z and can get some extra sets of ears present. I'll do a shoot-out on the Shuguang 300B-Z and TJ 300B/se to see who gets top spot with the A-534B. For those that have already purchased our 300B tube offerings, would appreciate hearing your opinions.

Cheers,
Ian
_________________
www.grantfidelity.com
Come see us at FSI 2009, RM 909
Sign up for the GF Newsletter
Coupon Codes !!

[igrant]

A-534B tube amp review just came out today at Positive Feedback by Kent Johnson:

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue41/grantfiledity_534b.htm

For all of you that bought the A-534B on my recommendation only (thanx :), enjoy the review on your amp.

Cheers,
Ian
_________________
www.grantfidelity.com
Come see us at FSI 2009, RM 909
Sign up for the GF Newsletter
Coupon Codes !!

[igrant]

Have another 50 hours on the Shuguang 300B-Z tubes, so at about 100 now.

So with the all the stock tubes back in except for the Shuguang 300B-Z's, fired up my demo CD to compare to the TJ 300B/se. What I am finding is that these two tubes are different. I'm hoping the Shuguang with more time (the TJ is still pretty new, maybe 40 hours on them now) will do what the TJ is doing, with it's own magic. I'll continue pounding the hours in on the tubes until they are at the factory recommended burn ins, TJ 100 hours, Shuguang Treasure 300 hours and at that point I'll spend a day with all sorts of different music and will roll the A-534 to make it sound the best it can to my ears with our tubes.

So where are we now you may ask, or get to the damn point will you Ian.

The Shuguang is getting closer to the TJ, but is still missing the soundstage extension and air inside the mix of the TJ/se, which is what makes the TJ so special, you hear every nuance of detail, while maintaining musicality. The Shuguang is trying, but is presenting the sounds in a smaller 3 dimensional space, not by much.

Now the strange and good thing about the Shuguang is that I keep listening past my skip to next demo song (I don't listen to the whole song when testing, just the parts I can memorize off the top) and again listened to a song I don't really like all the way to the end before I remembered I was testing. The Shuguang is just being so musical. Kind of like how I generalize that the EL-34 is a music lover's tube and the KT-88 is an audiophiles tube. The TJ makes your system amazing, the Shuguangs make your music sound amazing.

Hard call eh? I guess form your point of view, it is unlikely that you will end up with both sets of tubes to hear the difference like I can. If you hadn't heard the other tube, you would be thrilled with either.

Back to work,
Cheers,
Ian
_________________
www.grantfidelity.com
Come see us at FSI 2009, RM 909
Sign up for the GF Newsletter
Coupon Codes !!

[igrant]

I have another 100 hours on the Shuguangs Tresure 300B-Z's, so around 200 hours and another 30 hours on the TJ Fullmusic 300B/SE's, so around 70 hours.

Listened back and forth with 4 rolls today with the same GF demo CD, this time though I had rolled in to the configuration as per the original listening tests.

Well things have changed and drastically, the TJ now has some catching up to do with the Shuguang, the 300B-Z soundstage is as wide now and deeper than the 300B/se, the 300b/se is still has a bit higher soundstage, but where did all this bass come from on 300B-Z?. The depth of the soundstage and this really excellent bass had me thinking that RITA was on.

The 300B-Z is very addicting to listen to, it is still missing a little of the top end air of the 300B/se, but I don't care, the mid and bass performance is stunning and the top end is fine at least on my speakers (MBS-1's). The TJ is an audiophile tube, the 300B-Z is a music lovers tube. I don't really care much for 2 out of 4 of the songs I am using for testing, but the Shuguang won't let me stop enjoying the music. The TJ gets my audiophile hat on.

It's a hard choice to choose which tube to recommend as my favourite for the A-534B amp, but right now I'm leaning to the 300B-Z.

I'll report back again in another 100 hours, when both tubes are burnt in and compare with lots of different music.

Cheers,
Ian
_________________
www.grantfidelity.com
Come see us at FSI 2009, RM 909
Sign up for the GF Newsletter
Coupon Codes !!

[Brent W.]

Hi Ian, I finally Registered on your forum.

I have close to 200hrs now as well and last nights listening session went very late.

I have found the same things. Bass and midrange are phenomenal, well defined and powerful, but it is the balance from top to bottom that stands out about this tube to me. I like the top end very much. I think it is delicate and detailed. No sibilance or splash at all. Like you have said Ian the depth and width of the presentation has made huge improvements. This 300B-Z is a very musical performer. I am running Spendor 2/3's and they are proving to be a great match with this tube and amp combination. They have never sounded better.

The Valve Art 300B-98 is slower and has less drive. Softer less defined bass, treble extension is airy but not as detailed and there is that magical bloom in the midrange that draws you in. It is a nice tube but the 300B-Z is far quieter and more musical and i do not miss the midrange bloom at all.

The only question left is do I purchase a second set?

This 300B-Z Treasure is a true winner!!

Brent

[igrant]

[igrant]

So, finally got back to the 300B listening tests after receiving our first orders of all the Sheng Ya and Opera gear, plus our 6 new sets of speakers. So set up the listening system as previously described and then settled in for listening to the entire GF demo disk from begining to end which covers just about every possible music style, also is a mixture of audiophile type and less than perfect recordings.

The final 100 hours (300 hour factory recommended burn in) on the 300B-Z takes the Shuguang to another level again where it is definately an equal to the TJ 300B/SE as a contender for 'finest new production 300B tube' out there.

With the MBS-1 speakers the TJ's worked really well in the A-534B, but my preference was the SG 300B-Z. Trying to explain the differences is a bit difficult as both tubes are great, but when I switched over to the Sheng Ya V-518 horns for the second testing session, the SG 300B-Z was the tube that made the most sense.

Both tubes are extremely well balanced in sound, soundstage, image and layer wonderfully. The difference to my ears on my gear is the presentation of the fundamental tone and harmonics of notes. The Shuguang 300B-Z favours the presentation of fundamental notes below around 440hz (middle A on the piano) which creates a more musical presentation where the bass and low mids is better defined. The TJ 300B/SE seems to favour more of the harmonics than the fundamental note at lower frequencies and then portrays more of the fundamental in the upper octaves. The SG 300B-Z could be generalized (big generalization here) as a musicphiles tube and the TJ-330B/SE as an audiophile's tube, if you want musicality for a wide range of music, the Shuguang 300B-Z get the nod from me, if you want the audiophile experience for audiophile or acoustic intstrumention detail the TJ 300B/SE gets the nod from me.

So how to summarize this and make any sort of recommendations? I have a fallback statement/questions about what is it you are after? Do you lean towards being an 'audiophile' (listening to your system) or 'musicphile' (listening to your music library), of course that's a generalization, as we all do both right? Do you lean towards listening to audiophile recordings or want a system that also sounds good with so-so recordings? What does your current setup sound like?

Recommendations (not thinking price):

'audiophile' with laid back speakers (Harbeth, Sonus Faber etc) - TJ 300B/SE, SG 300B-Z, TJ 300B/N third choice
'audiophile' with revealing speakers (panels, horns etc.) - SG 300B-Z, TJ 300B/SE, TJ 300B/C third choice
'musicphile' with laid back speakers - SG 300B-Z, TJ 300B/SE, TJ 300B/N third choice
'musicphile' with revealing speakers - SG 300B-Z, TJ 300B/SE, TJ 300B/C third choice

I'll leave it up to you to fill in all the other scenarios.

Now that I think about it, this fundemental note thing, might be what Shuguang was after with their special interior coating that is supposed to eliminate stray electron reflections or something like that. Kind of makes sense if this is in fact what is happening, less false harmonics should be the result of this coating?

Look forward to hearing from the others that have the new TJ or SG tubes.

Oh and the standard Shuguang 300B-98 shouldn't be passed off, it is a great sounding tube for the price, you just need to make sure you get the good ones, too many 'not to spec' offerings of this tube out there. The ones to spec are either from a reputable dealer or re-branded such as Valve Art. I'd spend the few bucks more though and go for the TJ 300B/N if I was looking for a nice upgrade or needed new tubes.

Cheers,
Ian
_________________
www.grantfidelity.com
Come see us at FSI 2009, RM 909
Sign up for the GF Newsletter
Coupon Codes !!

[salavat]

I just got my Shuguang Black Bottles 300 B tubes from Canada... (Thanks a million Rachel for selling them to me!)...

I am going to post my impressions in timely manner as Ian did here.

In short - those are fabulous tubes!!!!! From the very first moment you notice all those audiophile magazine reviewer comments - they are more articulated better (not boomy!) bass, airy trebles and grand sound stage. One thing which I can confirm to what Ian was saying earlier - beware, they are addictive, very difficult to stop listening to them!

Equipment used - Thorens 124, ZYX R50 cart, SME 3009 arm, Audion Phono stage, Audion Premier Premamp, Audion Silver Night 300B power amp, Klipsch Heresy 3, wired with mainly silver interconnects and speaker cables.

If any questions, please ask, bear in mind those tubes really should sing after 300 hours as Ian said.

[guygus]

I purchased a quad set of the Shuguang 300B Z at the Montreal show from you guyys. I replaced the 300B 98 that were in my amp with these and,unlike the review above, I noticed an instant improvement from the get go. The improvement was across the board in all areas in a big way. I now have about 40 hrs. on them and they are sounding better every time I play music. I cannot imagine the improvements as they approach the 100, 200, and 300 hr. marks. javascrijavascript:emoticon('')pt:emoticon('')

[igrant]

[igrant]

[salavat]

You would notice improvements, I think they would rather be as refinements.

Ian, what counts for burn in - only playable time or powered on time counts too? Is it the same hour for hour or different?

Thanks

[igrant]

It is highly recommended not to burn in tubes without some signal passing thru them, idling tubes is more of a strain to them, after burn in you can idle them. Have fun

Cheers,
Ian
_________________
www.grantfidelity.com
Come see us at FSI 2009, RM 909
Sign up for the GF Newsletter
Coupon Codes !!

[guygus]

Hi Grant,
I am using a heavy duty copy of a KSL Kondo 300 PSE built by Kruno Bugar from Calgary. He used premium parts throughout on this amp as it was an all out custom order.It uses four 300B'a and it weighs a ton.

Guygus

[igrant]

[igrant]

Another ongoing user results

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1240592110
_________________
www.grantfidelity.com
Come see us at FSI 2009, RM 909
Sign up for the GF Newsletter
Coupon Codes !!

[swimjay]

Here are some additional impressions from a new 300B Z owner, with more to follow as the tubes continue to burn in. [Associated equipment includes Cambridge Audio 840C CD player w/Dexa clock and non-standard output IC, ef86-based home made line stage, home made dual mono 300B SET amps based on Jack Elliano's DRD design, Mapleshade interconnects and speaker wire, not-yet-released newly designed vibration dissipation devices under all electronics, and very,very highly modified Quad 63's. These speakers are not normally associated with low power amps, but in this incarnation have such a wide dynamic range that they sound great. That is, they don't play very loud, but retrieve low-level detail so far below the range of a normal loudspeaker they don't need to play loud to be satisfying.]

I've been using JJ 300Bs, and all comparisons that follow are with those.

Right out of the box the tubes are agreeable, a bit modest (not polite), even, for the first 10 minutes, slightly pinched sounding. But quickly, the sound grows more, for want of a better word, lovely. In reading Ian's thoughts above, I was afraid I might find an overall euphonic warmth, but this was not the case. The initial presentation is unambitious, as if no chances were being taken, but very unstrained. No one area calls out its excellence, but the overall sense is very comfortable--it doesn't seem as if there's going to be any suffering during the break-in period.

In a very short time--less than 5 hours--the dynamics become less constrained, individual instruments become more embedded in their surrounding space, and, at about 6 hours, one is occasionally aware that a performer is standing on a floor, something the JJ's could never quite communicate (the JJ's have easily in excess of 2000 hours of playing time.) Already, for classical music, I would rather listen to these than to the JJ's. For rock, they have less "slam" (an over-used, and strange, audio review term), and less deep bass. At this stage they sound "lower-bandwidth" than the JJ's, but the flip side of that is that they also sound less edgy, less white.

They show a greater ease at resolving lower midrange, upper bass information. So for example, if a cello and the lower strings of a violin occur together, each instrument retains its harmonic structure more completely and their sound combined is richer harmonically.

I think a part of their magic--and already they're magical--is that the Shuguangs seem to track very well subtle variations in pitch and amplitute. A tremolo or vibrato has almost as much reality as a note played with no vibrato. And individual violin notes don't oscillate subtly between sour and brittle, but stay centered at their appropriate sweetness. So there's a way in which the brain relaxes, and yields to the music.

With some music, when everything was very well set up, the JJ's might seem to "pierce the veil", and a kind of hyper-acute focus momentarily coincided with true musicality. The rest of the time one always felt a slight, or more than slight, unease. The range of CD's one wanted to listen to was narrower than is already the case with the Shuguangs.

More later.
_________________
The disease of the city leaps over the garden wall.

[igrant]

Thanks swimjay, when I did the above testing I was (still am) blown away with the TJ 300B/SE tube, which within 15 hours has such a sweet beautiful top end and midrange detail, I thought the Shuguang 300B-Z wasn't going to stand a chance, it wasn't until well into burn-in the 300B-Z started to catch up in this department. Now I simply think that since the 300B-Z has a more bottom end that the top end detail appears to be less, it isn't just appears that way. Wait until the bottom ends extends too !

Again, this was done in our stock A-534B and on my speakers, what you hear is going to be different, hope fully now that we are over at audiokarma.org those who have the TJ 300B/SE will chime in as well as others with the 300B-Z.

Cheers,
Ian
_________________
www.grantfidelity.com
Come see us at FSI 2009, RM 909
Sign up for the GF Newsletter
Coupon Codes !!

[igrant]

Starting to get some more: (maybe the greatest?)

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=69082.0

Cheers
_________________
www.grantfidelity.com
Come see us at FSI 2009, RM 909
Sign up for the GF Newsletter
Coupon Codes !!