Grant Fidelity Audio - Read Only

[akdrama]

Hi Yashu,

I am curious to know how the tube rolling is going...any chance for an update? And in case I missed it before what speakers and SS are the buffers tempering?

And Ian, what's this with cryogenics?

AK

[igrant]

I started a thread over at AudioCircle about it, to get some thoughts from people that have done it before:

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=50355.0

I met with Moray James last week and it is something he has done about as long as anyone as an audio tweak. I'll report on my finding both here and at Audio Circle when I have finished testing. Sounds promising

Pretty sure Yashu is doing computer music, both making and listening.

[akdrama]

Quite the read...thank you for providing the link.

AK

[igrant]

cryogenic treatment done on all the GF tubes, will play with next week after GF open house in Vancouver. Will send off set of treated and untreated to you Yashu.

[igrant]

cryo tests for the Shuguang 6J1 completed with great results. Will put them up in the store soon for sale as a roll option to the B-283.

Like to describe it as a blacker background to paint the soundstage on.

We cryo'd the whole B-283 in the box, including cable. After over 100 hours on it, the soundstage has collapsed from stock and missing the air on the top end. My guess is that it needs another couple of hundred of hours to break in.

Ian

[igrant]

an update on the cryo'd b-283. took about 500 hours to break in and it sounds great, not a big difference but noticable blacker background. not really recommended, as the cryo'd tubes basically does the same thing.

Cheers,
Ian
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[igrant]

not going to put the cryo'd 6J1's in the store, will keep them for forum members. if you want a set they are $30 pair shipped anywhere in NA. $45 pair international, just pm or email me.

Cheers,
Ian
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[igrant]

we've sold many hundreds of the B-283 now, anyone got any rolling stories to share?

Cheers,
Ian
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[zman1974]

Well, I'm almost in possession of my B-283. I must comment on the excellent customer service I received from Ian; prompt replies, even while at CES. I have a mid to hi-fi SS system, and I am looking forward to what this little processor can do. I already have a second set of tubes being sent to me from Andy at Vintage Tube Services (another gent who I heartily recommend). I will be connecting the buffer with Signal Cable interconnects and power cord. Will report back after I break it in later this month, or early next month. Should be fun!

Jim

[Audio2004]

Hi Jim,

Any chance for review. I just ordered one yesterday and can't wait for it. I plan to use it between my pre and power amp in my home theater system.

Thanks and hope you enjoy your new toy.

Mike

[Yashu]

It has been a while, but after one solid year of playing with the B-283 I can say that rolling tubes is fun, but it seems to always lead back to the 6J1.

I like Mullard CV4010s the best out of all the tubes I rolled. The GE, RCA, Raytheon, and others, they were about the same, with the matched pair if raytheons being better than the GE tubes. The RCA tubes were nothing special, but the Mullard pair were really good when the B-283 was behaving.

I learned this much, The best possible place for the buffer is right off your CDP or other digital source. I tried every possible tube and gain config, and placing it between pre and poweramp stages just never sounded right. The 6J1 was the best in this situation, as it did not harsh the HF. I have tried several amps to try that config, and a line stage as well as a NAD c162, the C162 lets you adjust pre=out gain. Minus 3db seemed to have a golden sound, but the buffer doesn't appear to be designed to have the full gain of the poweramp directly attached to it. It seems to rather like low level signals and impedance matching better than "tubifying" everything.

My DAC has a low output voltage and has trouble even with an active class A pre, and the B-283 sounds magical connected to the DAC. I wish I had a couple of them, I could attach one to the DAC, one to the HT source, and so forth. It really shines this way.

Interconnects matter. I have tried wireworld, vapirewire, and old style radioshack golds. The old Golds were good, but not the new ones. Avoid the new radioshack plastic golds. The old ones with the gold plated metal connectors are actually really good. I prefer the wireworld directional cables out of all of them, but I recently switched to a vintage amp, and suddenly the very revealing vampirewire cables sounded very open. The radioshack golds were a surprise hit when I wanted to put the buffer out of the way I had a set of 6ft golds, and was so impressed with their sound, I use the wireworld for the DAC-buffer-pre connection, and I use the old style golds for the pre-amp connection. I also enjoy the vampirewire with the vintage poweramp, but connect something modern, and everything can be too revealing, and the vampirewire cables are certainly revealing. The wireworld cables then go better to connect pre to amp, and then the radioshack cables work well on the b-283 in this case, with wireworld going from the buffer to pre.

Anyway, either way, the 6J1s are under-rated, but it makes sense since the buffer was designed around them. I still need to put in the cryo'd set. I want to research on effects doing that to tubes before I try and compare.

I came to the conclusion that if you roll with care, and keep track of ICs, either revealing, smooth, or laid back, either way, one can use tube rolling not as a fix, but as a slight tone adjustment. I liked other tubes, the Mullards had a nice warm sound when using a modern amp, but with my vintage SS amp, the 6J1s all the way. The b-283 was designed around them and it sounds great with them, and the b-283 belongs in it's role as a connection to a source, doing impedance matching. It will treat you well in this role, but it is hit or miss when directly connected up to a poweramp. That 100% gain on anything from the tubed buffer could bring out the good and the bad from your electrical power noise, EMF, or anything. It could also reveal the differences in rolling the most, but possibly at the cost of some distortion. I would stick with using it in it's rightful place connected to a SS source you may want to add a tubed output stage to. It works especially well when you are going to connect that source to just a line stage. Rolling tubes here still makes a difference, but not as drastic. It is still worth messing with because there may be a tube you like more than the stock set. I could see some vinyl listening working well with the GE tubes, for example, as they are a little hotter than the stock set.

That is what I was able to write now, I will have more on the way. I am always experimenting.

-Yashu

[igrant]

Thanks for the update Yashu. !! What we've learn't on the B-283 between the pre and power amp is that likely you need to have some form of power amp gain control on the amp so that you can drive you pre at CD like output gain. Kinds of makes sense in hindsight eh.

I too still lean towards the 6J1 for hi-fi and with my system can hear the benefit of cryo, musicians are getting all sorts of different tones with different tubes, but good luck getting them to post much

Cheers,
Ian
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[Yashu]

I forwarded the B-283 to a bunch of musician friends of mine. Electric Guitar and Bass, as well as for mastering, as in placing it line on a mixing board as a patch to add some final processing.

I think I agree about the amp thing. The problem is, I have no amp that has it's own volume control. The only thing I can think of would be a hack for most people as there aren't that many amps with volume controls.

The NAD 2400 (I think?) the late 80s one, not the early 80s one. The late 80s one is a PE amp and not highly regarded, so there are a lot on ebay, but they have volume controls for both L and R. The only gain control I have in the pre to power connection is on the pre, which sucks, because like you said, it would be better to have the preamp output it's full level, and have the amp itself make the adjustments.

I have some new revelations and will post a new thread about it, but wanted to chime in on this one about that issue. I am using the B-283 for my media source now, and not my digital audio source. The B-283 used for games, movies, and other media, it is kindof cool. It makes a 2 channel HT sound really really nice. Wide sound stage, good imaging, a sound that pulls you in. It makes one forget you only have 2 channels. I like the B-283 with stock and rolled tubes this way. Also, I discovered a couple other things.

Number one, aside from the pre-power connection problem, some of the harshness is still there, but I made the HF "whine" go away. For all of those out there, we all know the B-283 needs to be grounded, but there are a lot of preamps and integrateds that AREN'T! I created a little patch wire connected to the chassis of my preamp, and I tested this also with the Integrated, now I could have just been having a good day, but I was trying to fix some hum on my DAC, and it didn't matter what DAC, (I have two now), but I was getting hum with or without the B-283 in place. I tried cheaters everywhere, no dice. I used some wire, some aligator clips and a banna plug to rig up some common grounding for my pre (or integrated, but it works with the pre, so I prefer to use it with the vintage poweramp). One clip connected to pre's chassis, the other to a bananna plug that is opened a little for some friction, and inserted into the grounding hole on my powerstrip. Instant common grounding, hum goes away. I would not recommend this as a perminant solution. Soon I am going to hardwire a 3 prong plug for my pre, but for now this is fine as it does what it needs to do.

Instantly the hum was gone, and sound improved a lot, even with just my old non-oversampling DAC, so I thought to myself, could this be the source of the "other" issue? And sure enough I think it is. I think it is a byproduct of tube hamonics that this hum, or ground loop fault, or whatever, was causing what should have been a low freq. (60hz) tone, to works it's way up there in the HF band. Don't ask me how... It may even be that there is DC on the power coming into my apt. Either way, giving anything I am hooking the B-283 into a common ground, or for that matter, anything I was hooking into the B-283, fixed that issue.

This may be something to watch out for as far as I can tell, many hifi components up until recently were not given grounding. The big headscratcher is my preamp because it has a good phono section, now this means it has a connection for the TT grounding wire. My thought is... well, it makes no sense, why ground the TT at all if the pre itself is not grounded? It seems like a design flaw on the part of the preamp manufacturer. I do think the latest REVs of all my pre and power components have 3 pronged plugs, but up until 2001 or 2, they did not. My pre is dated 1999, and I bought my integrated in 2001 I think.

I can understand my older poweramp, it was early 80s, "loose" NAD topography. I actually got the last poweramp they made before they switched to the Power Envelope design. Their current amp stages are kindof a throwback to this era with some tweaks like auto impedance matching and so forth, but better than the late 80s and early-mid 90s PE stuff. I think the best NAD "classic" amp that you could buy today is the C320BEE variant. You would want to forget about the line stage and use it as an amp. It would be one of the best values out there for a good poweramp, even my older NAD integrated works better as a poweramp. The line stage basically sucks. The C37x integrateds have their C16x pre built in, so it is like having separates in one box, so no issue (and best NAD integrated to use the B-283 with, if you want to try it between pre and power sections). IF you do have a line stage of some sort, or passive pre, then the B-283 is like a gift from the heavens. Passive pre owners should really look into one of these. Non-oversampling DACs have made their splash, well now so have passive preamps. They use a transformer, so I guess they aren't traditional passive, but still... TVC owners are going to want to put something tubed up against it even though it has a transformer. Remember, output voltage is not everything. (Ian, I know YOU know that, just sayin'). The transformer preamps get the voltage up, and also through the transformer they act as an isolation device, but still ohm's law applies. Whatever you hook into your passive pre needs to have the output that the B-283 can give you, if your source doesn't already have it. Many of these new devices, their attraction is the deviation from many "standards", sometimes this includes, such is the case with my Dialogue II, a low output voltage, needing an active pre, or the B-283 anyway, even with an active pre... still notice a fuller sound.

I have some "what now" stuff, that will go into another thread.

[headdie]

Hi Guys !

Does somebody know the output impedance of B-283 ?

Thanks,

[Marz]

Hi,

I just wanted to add that the B-283 can really enhance the sound of vintage solid state gear as well as your newer hifi gear. I'm currently using mine to sweeten the sound of an old early 70's Kenwood integrated amp (~18 watts) out to a pair of Altec Capris bookshelf speakers. I have the B-283 loaded with Mullard M-8100s (also tried some some old RCA tubes in it - they were a bit brighter, I think, and the original NP1 tubes sounded really good too). It's in the preamp - out, preamp - in loop and it sounds great, no ground problem. My primary music source is my home PC with a Lilo III. Excellent sound. I especially love the influence of the B-283 on the sounds of drum kits, basses, and acoustic guitars.

I've also used it in my home studio in all kinds of signal chains. The effect is subtle but there's a definite enhancement. Once again, it seems to be most effective for me on drums, acoustic guitars and basses. It is especially effective for enhancing the sound of cymbals coming through the overhead mics recorded to digital.

Also, for those reading post who are thinking about purchasing one - I really like mine and am glad I purchased it. I wondered about tube rolling and have found that the differences between different kinds of tubes is nowhere near as profound as the difference between using the unit and not using it.

Thanks!

Mike

[igrant]

Thanks Mike for the update,

When tracking with it in the studio have you tried running the two channels in series, kind of an overdrive, then using different tubes on each channel ? I don't have my studio system setup anymore (one day soon I hope) so don't get to play with it the way I envision it ion the making music side. Blew me away when hooked up to a Berringer V-Amp.

Cheers,
Ian ..
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