Grant Fidelity Audio - Read Only

[headdie]

Happy new year !

I've just ordered a B-283 tube processor. I'd like to use it in a digital set up :

laptop > usb soundcard with head amp > headphones

Now, the only way I can see to plug it is like this :

laptop > usb soundcard usb with head amp > tube buffer > headphones

I would have to get the proper connectors to do that, but I suspect that the headphone out of my usb soundcard wouldn't be good as an input to the tube buffer... that I could damage the buffer with too much current / voltage... that I would face an impedance mismatch at the input and/or output of the tube buffer...

Do you see another way to use the B-283 in a simple set up between a computer and headphones?

Finally, what would be worthy tube upgrades for this little beast ?

Thanks fo your help !
__________________
C1 : Laptop > Musiland LILO III > Denon D2000
C2 : Laptop > Musiland LILO III > NAD C720BEE > Beyer DT990

[igrant]

Happy New Year to you too and you win the lets stump Ian with a tough question award 2009 and it's only a few days into 2009

Actually you are fine coming out of the headphone jack into the B-283, that is done all the time with no problems, it is the other side that will likely be an issue, although I haven't tried it yet (hence the I'm stumped)

I would think you will need some sort of headpone amp on the output side of the B-283 and if your soundcard has analog (line) outputs I'd use those into the B-283 and then and amp with a headphone output.

What soundcard is it and what are are you using it for? Listening or making music?

Cheers,
Ian
_________________
www.grantfidelity.com
Come see us at FSI 2009, RM 909
Sign up for the GF Newsletter
Coupon Codes !!

[headdie]

This is what I call quick support on a sunday afternoon... Thanks Ian !

First, here's the LILO III,

http://www.pacificvalve.us/MusilandLILO.html

Except mine is the 5th anniversary edition (roughly the same).

I understand that I could try the B-283 between the LILO and phones without danger, but it may not work properly without another amp at the output. So, I'll try it anyway. If I finally need another amp, it's gonna be more like my second configuration,

C1 : Laptop > Musiland LILO III > Denon D2000
C2 : Laptop > Musiland LILO III > NAD C720BEE > Beyer DT990

With the buffer between the LILO and the NAD.

Now, could you tell me something about tube upgrades? I've read good things about the Mullard M8100 and the 403B (WE or Ericsson)...

[igrant]

Here's a link to tube rolling the B-283 in another part of our forum.

http://grantfidelity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=90

The big thing with tube rolling is only you will know what tube works for you, everything you read will only be an opinion based on someone else's system and tastes. Reading is good to identify fakes or quality issues

Please let us know how it works out for you with the straight to headphones. I'll try and get a cable adapter and try it myself. Your second options is how you will likely end up going.

We work 7 days a week and enjoy it

Cheers,
Ian
_________________
www.grantfidelity.com
Come see us at FSI 2009, RM 909
Sign up for the GF Newsletter
Coupon Codes !!

[headdie]

Hello !

It's damn cold in Quebec these days, so it's perfect for sound experimentations. Hopefully, my little buffer has arrived with the cold weather, so I don't mind to much what's going oiutside

First, I got it connected and turned on for 48 hours straight. Not sure if it's better, but I've read it somewhere... Then I've tried it in the tape loop of my receiver and at the pre-out main-in.

Here's my set up for the test,

Laptop > Musiland USB soundcard > NAD receiver > Beyer headphones

First, in the tape loop, the difference is almost unnoticeable. I'd say, a couple db lower and slighly less HF. But, you have to listen very very carefully to hear a difference.

Then, I've got it between the preamp and the power amp. Now, the difference is clear. When I turn on the B-283, the sound level turn up gradually and very noticeably within a few seconds. If I turm down the volume to correct level, then I'd say the sound keeps warmer.

Now, it was a quick test and the break in isn't complete, so I will comment later for SQ.

Now, here's my questions :

1. When I turn off the buffer, I can hear huming in the left channel. When I turn it on, huming disapear. It happens at the pre-out main-in, but not in the tape loop... Any idea ?

2. I'd prefer to keep it at the pre-out main-in, cause I can use it for whatever input I like, but I understand it may gives better results directly out of the CD/DVD player or soundcard... Is that right ?

3. On the paper specifications in the box, the SNR is 60 db. On the Grant website, the SNR is 75 db. Elsewhere on the net, they even talk about 90 db... Finally, what's the S/N ratio of this thing? Is it related to the tubes we use ?

4. I consider an EMU Tracker Pre as a new USB soundcard. If I'm not mistaken, this way I could use the buffer in a "Send/Return Insert" of the audio interface,

http://www.emu.com/products/product.asp?category=610&subcategory=611&product=17511

Then I would be able to listen with only the laptop, usb soundcard, tube buffer and headphones... Right ?

As a final thought, may I say the B-283 is quite heavy and beautiful? My wife doesn't agree on this last point, but it's because I did a poor job managing her expectations... In french, a tube is called a "lampe", the same word as for a light... So, she was expecting red, blue and purple lights moving all over the room...

So Ian, there may be a market there... Think about it for the B-284

Ciao !

[igrant]

Hi headdie,

Sounds like it may be faulty or an un or improperly shielded cable? Did you swap to see if the hum went to the other channel, also make sure you aren't too close to your monitor with the B-283. You can also swap the tubes around and see if the the hum moves with the channel. That i isn't humming is good when on Also when off your pre-might have a capacitor that isn't enjoying seeing an unpoered capacitor. If every works fine when on, I wouldn't worry too much about. It a hum does develope later when on, let me know, you may a premature failing tube which will be covered by warranty

Yes, in the tape loop especially with headphones and a NAD amp it was hard for me to hear it, when you go to speakers thought it was much more noticable. Best results are on the Source player or between the pre and amp, but some also really like it in the tape loop.

SN is 75db, I guess they still have the specs from the single tube version, will get hat corrected. 90db SN is pretty hard to achieve on tube gear, quieter tubes will give you maybe 6db of SN max, but I've never measured, just roll by ears. The SN if fine at 75db for analog. Our cryo'd 6J1 tubes, mske the B-283 'blacker', which would indicate a better SN ratio.

I'm a huge fan of E-mu gear, so good choice. I haven't seen the one your using, but I'm sure it's sound is excellent. I'm suprised audiophiles don't know about E-mu for music servers etc. I still use the E-mu APS card on my Reality Synth/Sampler computer, even that is still a really good card.

Yes you can use the B-283 in the E-mu's send return and then patch that in with your E-mu's software control panel. Even better is if you record music or want to create some tunes for your portable, you can process the recording or songs with the B-283 and then your portable will basically have the effect of having the B-283 in the chain. If you want some help, let me know. I haven't had time to do it myself and would like to get some tubes to show tubed veses untube same song.

Your wife is very smart, we have been toying with music light chaser idea, to do that with something like the B-283 would make an even better Xmas present.

Tell her thanks for the idea !!

btw, when off the B-283 actually reduces gain about 2 to 3 db due to the circuits being unenergized, while it is super cool to hear the tubes fire up, it is actually just coming back up to nominal volume. Guitar player definately here the an increase in volume do to the nature of the B-283 creating much mor harmonic information. They end up turning down their amp anywhere from 3 to 9 db. makes the stage or practise sound much quieter with the same tone, should save some ears with the B-283 !!

Yes I do suggest just leaving the B-283 on for 48 hours, seems burn in nicely togeth that way, then should open up by about 100 hours, try and keep some muci going thru it for burn in, turn down the amp if you need to do something else. I just loop a compilation CD thru it.

Cheers

Ian
_________________
www.grantfidelity.com
Come see us at FSI 2009, RM 909
Sign up for the GF Newsletter
Coupon Codes !!

[headdie]

[igrant]

The B-283 isn't going to clip anything, but you will need to match the ourput of your E-mu thru the cahin, E-mu is pro gear and might be running a little hot in gain for you NAD, experiment. With soundcards you do want full or as close as you can get coming out and then use your amp to adjust volumes. Make sure to leave a bit for headroom too. Experiment.

The signal when powered off to all of our ears sounds the same, just a bit quieter, which of course messes the mind. The signal is still going thru a circuit path so I would have to say there is some difference when powered down.

Please let me know when you get some tunes a/b'd that would be very cool and would help us too. I just don't have time to have fun like that, would need to set up my music making computer and don't actually have the space any more.

Cheers,
Ian
_________________
www.grantfidelity.com
Come see us at FSI 2009, RM 909
Sign up for the GF Newsletter
Coupon Codes !!

[headdie]

[igrant]

Thanks for all the info,

Is there a dimmer light switch near you? When you say everything is fine when you run an extension from another room leads me to think you have some funky 'house' power situation happening.

Our RPF-120 power conditioner is a potential solution for this type of problem, but a bit pricey (and just out of stock again) at $380. I have a sample of our new 'affordable' power bar that I can let go for $125, it is designed for audio but isn't an isolating device like the RPF-120, if you want to go that direction, a Monster or Pure AV conditioner might do the trick, but I don't like them for audio and there kind of pricey too.

Just saw your edit too, you may have a bad (or dying) transformer in your laptop's PSU, which is not handling to me what sounds like dirty power at the receptacle you are using.

If you have an old DVD or CD player kicking around use it instead of your Laptop just to check that the B-283 is working fine, It should be basically dead quiet, no tics from tubes or anything, no matter if powered on or off.

Let us know, it is really appreciated when people write in the forum about any issues or how the sound is with their setup.

Cheers,
Ian
_________________
www.grantfidelity.com
Come see us at FSI 2009, RM 909
Sign up for the GF Newsletter
Coupon Codes !!

[headdie]

Just back from the grocery store, where I had another idea to try...

But first, let me tell you that the continuous tic-a-tic-a-tic-a-tic is not related to the laptop. I unplug the computer from the AC outlet and from the USB DAC (so it's not in the chain directly or indirectly). I turn off any source. I turn on the receiver. Then, I turn on the buffer. Within five seconds, the tic-a-tic begins. Remember the buffer is between the pre amp and power amp. You can hear it clearly with no input, but as soon as you play music, you have to know it's there to hear it. Finally, it's seem a bit louder in the right channel, so I swapped the tubes, but it keeps a bit louder in the right channel anyway. I'd have to try it elsewhere than between the pre amp and power amp to see... Unfortunatly, I don't have another integrated amplifier to test it with... But it's not annoying and not a priority for me to solve this thing...

So let's get back to the main issue. Back from the grovery store, I got me another powercord, but without a ground leg, so I can plug the buffer in reverse (ungrounded if you want). I tried it and the 60hz noise disappeared. Then I switch it back in "grounded mode" and no noise again??? But still with the cord without the ground leg...

I don't understand... but saturday night at 21h00, honestly I don't care anymore... So Ian, if you bless this solution, it's gonna become a definitve workaround for me. I'll keep using the powercord with only two legs... After all, who said it's better with three legs?

What do you say Ian? No risk for the little buffer? Still grounded but without this noisy leg...

Hasta la vista !

[igrant]

No way I can bless that fix, you have lifted the ground from everything and that is DANGEROUS. Especially with the voltages of tube gear. The transformer is stepping up voltage and if you become the ground you can get a very nasty shock or worse.

It is however a great method of testing to see where a ground problem is, which I generally get to last if I can't sort it with other methods.

Will chat more tomorrow with you on it. Do not think of this as a solution, understand?

Cheers,
Ian
_________________
www.grantfidelity.com
Come see us at FSI 2009, RM 909
Sign up for the GF Newsletter
Coupon Codes !!

[headdie]

[igrant]

The original 2 wire system had a live and neutral, of course no one could agree on which one was which, then they had the polarized live and neutral (one plug connector bigger than the other) and things were better, but still some issues as to no direct connection to ground, finally they have the 3 wire system with a live neutral and ground, good system still not perfect. The neutral should act as a ground in an ungrounded system.

Is your home reletively new ? Are your house receptacles fully grounded as in 3 prong that is acually wired up? Was the extension cord you ran from another room a 2 prong or 3 prong when your hum vanished? Do you any television or internet cable hooked up to your audio system?

The B-283 is designed to ground thru the third wire, it may ground thru neutral if everything else on the circuit does properly, the problem is that electricity takes the quickest path to ground when a fault occurs or there is a spike in your electrical system that has no normal path to ground. Unfortunately that could be you or if you are handling your gear at that time of fault or spike.

I'm not an electrician (I'm certified electronics technologist), so you may want to ask one to have a look at your home anyways to see why you have noise in one room and not another. 60 cycle hum in an audio system is a good indicator that something may not be right. A big culprit with potential ground problems in a house is the cable companies, they more often than not create a ground differential that causes hums in audio systems, due to them grounding their system at the most convenient place instead of back to the main's ground.

Odds are you are fine, but again, I'm not going to bless it. How we generally deal with a ground lift solution is to use a $2 ground lift plug (available at home depot, electrical supply stores etc) and re-route the ground with a new wire from the ground lift plug to another ground point. You've likely heard about many musician's getting fried when playing live. 9 out of 10 times that was due to them using a ground lift solution without re-attaching ground. I'm a live and recording engineer too

Have fun and please be safe.

Cheers,
Ian
_________________
www.grantfidelity.com
Come see us at FSI 2009, RM 909
Sign up for the GF Newsletter
Coupon Codes !!

[headdie]

[igrant]

You should get a receptacle checker, about $10 at the same places, it will tell you how your house is wired at the receptacle, especially with an older house that has who knows what for wirng and mods to the wiring. If this tester shows everything is grounded then you should look at your cable system grounding, many use a cable isolation transformer, about $25 to get rid of hum.

All these are things we should all be aware of in our home anyways, introducing the B-283 into your setup to me seems like it showing that there is something wrong ground wise at the receptacle you are using.

Of course it just might be a bad tube but your efforts to correct just keep pointing to something else. Also I've been thru this on the phone and emails quite a few times and it does usually end up being a power problem. A bad tube kind of lets you know it is bad, snap crackle pops, loss of sound, no sound at all, glows purple or red, but they do on rare occasion have a hum in them. That it works right in various situations indicated the tube is ok, except for that tic, tic.

Cheers,
Ian
_________________
www.grantfidelity.com
Come see us at FSI 2009, RM 909
Sign up for the GF Newsletter
Coupon Codes !!

[headdie]

[igrant]

Can you take the B-283 to a buddies system or try it in another system?.
It is possible that there is something wrong with your B-283 or the tubes. If we can sort that out I can get a replacement out to you if needed. I really don't like the idea of anything being ground lifted.

SuperBowl?, you mean that 'it takes 4 downs to go 10 yards' version of the real game played up here

Cheers,
Ian
_________________
www.grantfidelity.com
Come see us at FSI 2009, RM 909
Sign up for the GF Newsletter
Coupon Codes !!

[headdie]

I didn't have time to take care of it lately. I guess I'll be able to try it elsewhere this weekend. Meanwhile, I think that all the three different noises I can hear are related to a ground problem. Rational : they stay at the same level, even if I turn the volume up... I'll tell you more about it after the weekend. Thanks for your exceptional support Ian. Honestly, I'm amazed by the effort you put in for a 150$ device. It's all to your honor. I'm not sure my english is good enough, but I hope you understand what I'm telling you. Thanks again,

[igrant]

Your English is a lot better than I am at your language

Let me know after you've tried it at someone else's house. I've had another customer recently with a similar problem and it was what we think a ground issue, that we couldn't sort out, so he is returning it, replacing what he was trying to do and bought one of our amps instead. Why?, he appreciated our customer service and pricing.

It doesn't matter what amount you spend, for us it is about you enjoying your tunes and hopefully enjoying them more with our gear.

Again, thanks for posting and keep us informed.

Cheers,
Ian
_________________
www.grantfidelity.com
Come see us at FSI 2009, RM 909
Sign up for the GF Newsletter
Coupon Codes !!